860: How Learning Management Systems Transform Company Culture w/ Petra Mayer

0:00 Hey, what is up? Welcome to this episode of the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast. As always, I'm your host, Brian Lofermento, and today we are joined by an incredible guest. Her name is Petra Mayer. Petra does incredible work when it comes to the context of learning within our businesses, within our employees, within our clients, wherever it is in our business that we need to implement learning management systems. Petra has some really powerful insights and strategies for us to more effectively deploy this in our businesses, because business is all about effective communication and translating our message to the people who we want to be able to understand it, decipher it and take action from it.

0:41 So let me tell you about Petra. Petra is the founder and lead consultant at Petra Mayer and Associates Consulting, based in British Columbia, Canada. She builds on her 30 plus years of experience of working in corporations of all sizes in four countries on three continents to help her clients create engaging training programs for their team members, clients and distribution partners on systems that work for them. That's what we're all looking for in business. Petra prides herself in building partnerships with the organization she serves and the associates she brings on board. Now Petra has quite the extensive background as far as certifications, academic background, not even going to try to pronounce her German school's name in Munich.

1:22 She has her MBA from Lancaster University and she is a certified professional coach from the Simon Fraser University. Petra brings a wealth of knowledge in business, in teams, in learning, so I'm not going to say anything else. Let's dive straight into my interview with Petra Mayer. All right, Petra, I am so excited that you're here today. Welcome to the show. Well, thank you so much for having me, Brian. It's a pleasure to be here. Heck yeah. Likewise, we are so excited for today's session because this is a topic that I think most business owners they think they can figure it out and they try to figure it out, to varying degrees of effectiveness.

2:03 But before we get there, I want to know who Petra is, how you've amassed all this incredible experience that you now pass on to people. So take us beyond the bio. Who is Petra? Oh dear, that's a big question. Well, who is Petra? Petra, I would say, is a professional who really has a varied journey, a bit of a zigzag around the block and around the globe, with working mostly in tourism hospitality in my early years. That took me to the States. I worked in Florida. I'm originally from Germany, but I worked in Florida at a hotel and then I went back to Germany.

2:44 I went to Australia to work for a tour operator, and also a second time and worked for Lufthansa there, came back to Germany, ended up working for that tour operator a bit longer and then switched over to work for British Airways, which ultimately brought me all the way here to Canada when I worked for the One World Alliance. And then 2011, I took the big jump and I opened my own business, and it's been an exciting journey ever since. Yes, I love that overview, petra, because I really love these types of entrepreneurial journeys that so many entrepreneurs have, where you've bounced around geographic locations, you've bounced around industries, big business working with small business.

3:27 I think that gives you such a powerful perspective so you can take what works from each of these, which I love the fact that it yielded a learning and development consultancy, petra. Not everybody knows what those words mean together. What the heck does a learning and development consultancy do? What the heck does a learning and development consultancy do? Yeah, we help our clients in anything that needs to happen around learning programs, for it sometimes is their employees, sometimes it's clients and sometimes it's distribution systems, so they're partners in distribution. So most people are aware that you are. If you're a larger organization, midsize to larger organization and you bring on new staff members, you do onboarding.

4:10 Well, that's a learning program, any onboarding programs. Sometimes it's done in person, but often these days, particularly with dispersed organizations, it's done virtually, done virtually. And I, ever since I started my own business, that's really what I wanted to do. I wanted to work in my own home, I wanted to have my dog by my side, and so I wanted to be virtual. And this is something unusual. At that time, 2011, that was not really that common. Of course, after COVID, it's much more common. So a lot of organizations need to find ways to train their staff. But I also work with organizations who are training organizations. That's their product, their service that they sell, so they need to train their clients.

4:53 And then, lastly, if you're, for example, a software company and you're selling a software package and you need a distribution channel to really understand that package, or you need your clients to really know how to work with that software, then you need to train them on that too. So there's different scenarios, of course. Yeah, I love that. Those are the examples that you chose for us, petra, because I always make the argument that hiring is the hardest thing to get right as a business owner. It's also, of course, the key driver to growth and it's something that we focus on so much here on the show and listeners have heard we've had culture experts, for example, because when you bring people on board, you want to create a culture, and it's so hard to do it in this remote era. Petra, you're an OG in this space.

5:34 You referenced 2011. It's hard. I mean, I've been in business since 2008 with a remote team, ever since then, and you're right, it's become a little bit more mainstream these days, but it's still hard to get that right, and I would actually argue that training is the first place your culture has the chance to show up after hiring. So talk to us about that. What even looks like? Because we've all seen online courses like Udemy. We've probably all experienced some form of online content consumption. But to transfer what we know in our brains to new employees, to implement the building blocks of culture and job competence, how do we even begin that journey? Yeah, that's a really good question, and you know it really starts with a good plan.

6:17 Everything starts with a good plan, doesn't it? So we need to make a really good plan. What is it that we want our learners to understand about the organization, about how we do business around here, who we are and how we interact with clients, how we interact with other colleagues, how we interact within our hierarchical structure? So all that needs to come across in the system. And then there's, of course, compliance training that also needs to be completed. So most organizations have some training that, through regulatory obligations, they need to deliver, let's say, operational health and safety. That's a typical one that we see, but it might also be a privacy training, accessibility training, dei training all those kind of different trainings that organizations deliver.

7:05 Now, from an organizational perspective, you want to do this as efficiently as possible, but you also want to be effective in it. As a learner, you want to get the training, get the tick box behind it, but if it can be pleased, delivered in an engaging way, then I'll stay more in tuned with the training and I will be able to also implement what I'm supposed to learn, the behaviors I'm supposed to display, and so that's really key in training delivery and these days, when we have a dispersed team, we want to do this virtually. We want to do it effectively, meaning ideally there is not individual one on one training.

7:46 We want to do it in groups or we want to do it as a virtual training. And still we want to look at what are the different ways to create that engagement in our training delivery so that the learner actually takes something away from it, because we can sit in front of a video and at the end of it it has totally bypassed us. You know we just get enough to click on these questions, but really not much is sticking in there. So we really need to develop training programs that are engaging and get our employees excited about being with us, especially at the beginning of their journey. Yeah, I love that overview, Petra, especially because it gives me so many launch points. I want to go so deep into all of these with you.

8:28 We're going to try to do it in an efficient manner here today. Petra, you're German, you're the master of efficiency, so we're going to do our best to get there. But it really speaks to. I think the first and foremost topic that stands out to me is that concept of different learning styles. I mean, for me, I'm visual, even with regards to languages. If you say something to me in German, I have no idea what you're saying, but if I can see it written out, then I can start to actually consume it. And you talk about I mean, you and I have both kind of called out the traditional here. Watch this video. It's not the most engaging style. Talk to us about some of those different form factors that learning can be delivered in. Are we talking about extensive handbooks? Are we talking about videos? What does it actually look like in factor it kind of is all of the above.

9:11 I personally agree. There's a lot of debate around learning styles and there's some people who say that doesn't even exist and what. I believe it doesn't exist in isolation. So you mentioned your visual. You want to see things in front of you, you want to see the words written down. It helps you to. I believe it doesn't exist in isolation. So you mentioned your visual. You wanna see things in front of you, you wanna see the words written down. It helps you to consume the content and I believe that that is true. It's the combination of visual, auditory learning, but predominantly really is engaging with the content. We need to do something with it. We cannot just be an observer. We need to actually engage in the content. We need to do something with it. We cannot just be an observer. We need to actually engage in the content. That means we need to have some interactive exercises, not only quiz questions.

9:52 We might wanna have discussion forums around it, ideally even in-person discussions, a forum. We can do that. We can do training that is considered hyper-training, where we learn some of the facts through maybe observing a video, reading some content and writing some exercises or answering some questions, but then go into a discussion group and have conversations with our colleagues, with our team members, about it. And while we're in the era of AI, you know this is just going to change so much from here on forward. What we can do in interactive exercises, virtual reality, ai, q&a, having a conversation with a computer that acts like a human being, you know, the sky's the limit.

10:39 Ai will be an exciting new and achievable and approachable tool that even smaller organizations will be able to use in their training content delivery, and that's really exciting for me. I think it's a fabulous time to work in this field. Yeah, petra, I love that you brought that up, because that's something that I always love talking to entrepreneurs about within their respective industries is we can't ignore AI and within the context of our conversation here today, I'm going to broaden it to just technology as a whole, because I know that's part of your special and unique and powerful approach is technology enables all of these things. We're talking about Hearing you, petra. You're publicly, I feel like you're enhancing me or enticing me to up my own game with my own teams, because you're right, we can build in these levels of engagement that previously may have been more difficult, and technology actually makes it more accessible to small businesses such as myself, and I think that's a really important point.

11:36 Talk to us more about those tech solutions, because AI is one, and I'd love to hear more about how we can implement that in our workflows and in our teams and in our learning, but also some of those tech platforms, because a lot of listeners here today, a lot of business owners, probably have no idea what LMS systems even are. Yeah. So if you want to deliver a virtual training, it has to have a home, it has to live somewhere. You cannot just go to a computer and there it is. It has to be sitting in a platform or a system, a web system, web-based system where the learners can access it, but also your administrators can actually create the training in the first place.

12:19 So we tend to call that a learning management system. So a learning management system is the platform where your training program are housed. That can be training programs that are just text-based, video-based audio combination. Then there's a whole area of interactive training that is built on a language called SCORM or a format called SCORM, which makes it more interactive, but we won't go too technical here. But the platform is where those training programs can be delivered to the learners, and these platforms can manage that and automate some of that delivery. So, for example, if you need to do an annual training in operational health and safety, that the system knows when you've last done it and sends you a reminder that you're due again, and the manager can also see that all team members have taken their training up to speed.

13:10 So that's a simple way. Now, with AI coming into these systems now there is so many more opportunities when the learning management system vendor has opportunities to utilize AI, either in your course creation and simplify those processes, or in. You know the Netflix of learning. So if you're going into Netflix and you see the videos that are based on what you've seen before, well, that personalized learning content can happen on a learning management system. That, depending on what training you've taken before it, will give you some suggestions of what might be the next area to build yourself, professionally or personally.

13:54 Employees these days have really great expectations of what their employer offers to them when it comes to personal and professional development, and you mentioned earlier that it's so important to get the right staff and hiring is so important. Retaining your staff is almost more important, and learning and development can be one of those tools that you use in keeping your staff with you so that they are loyal to your organization, stay with you, stay engaged, stay interested in the topic of your business, and you don't have to spend the money on replacing them.

14:34 Yeah, petra, really powerful strategies and insights there for every single one of our listeners. Listeners go back and listen to Petra's answer there, because I think it's so revealing about her attitude towards Petra. I'm going to publicly call out feedback loops and so many of your answers, even in our short time here together so far. It seems like that's at the core of how you view effective learning programs. Is having a feedback, feedback loop of is this employee, is this team member? Are they actually getting it? Are they understanding it? How can I capture that information? So talk to us a little bit more about those feedback loops, whether it's. I know that when we do talk about technology, we have a tendency to talk about more automated solutions, but, of course, on the human level, how do we make sure that this stuff is actually working?

15:20 I think that is such a key question, what you're saying there, brian, because if you are working in a learning and development uh department of a larger organization, you know you get the task you've got to create this training program. So what's your job? Your job is to understand what's the content I've got to bring across. Who are the learners? How do I best bring this across? What does a learner need to do? Eventually, the course is live. You say tick box, what's my next project? And you're not necessarily even that close to those learners. You may typically you might not even know them, and that's a danger, because that means that the learning and development consultant or the learning and development staff member just goes to complete their job of creating training programs.

16:07 But what we really, what really our job is, is to either build knowledge and competence or to change behaviors, and we need to know what those behaviors are and how they change in order to see if our training was effective. If we ignore that piece, if we don't have that feedback loop in some shape or form, then really we're just people that are, we're just manufacturing, and you know it's just a new, modern way of manufacturing. In my work I really want to understand what the learner experiences and how. What is it that we're trying to achieve here?

16:48 We're trying to achieve a behavior change. Well then, we somehow need to have conversations with the learner. We need to be able to observe those learners behaviors. We need to be able to observe those learners' behaviors in not a creepy way. We want to observe them in okay so, their conversations in the call center with their clients. How were they before they did the training and how do they change their behaviors on the phone in how they're treating those clients, and has that gotten us towards that behavior that we want to see? So we need to have a clear idea of where people are when they start and we need to have a clear idea and observation of where they got to after the training, and not only immediately after training, six months later, a year later, because we're just human beings.

17:35 We follow our habits and we might fall back into not so good habits if we don't stay with it, if we don't continuously work on our capabilities and our abilities to interact with other human beings. Yeah, petra, I'm so glad that we went there here in our conversation today because I think this stuff speaks to not only effective learning techniques and strategies, but, most importantly, how to make us all better leaders and how to lead our teams in the direction that we're all working towards together. And part of that I want to come back here because you brought it up and it is a huge topic it feels like the entire other side of the coin, and maybe the most important side of the coin, which is that employee retention and, obviously, ongoing education. You actually said in your answer a few minutes ago.

18:17 You said that one of the things that we can provide to our team members is education. That is also a benefit. We don't all just work our jobs for 40 years or however long, because we want to get a paycheck. We also want that career growth. We want that personal development group growth. So talk to us about ongoing education. Is this something it sounds like we should probably have embedded just into our culture on an ongoing basis, not just for employee onboarding? Talk to us about ongoing education. Is this something it sounds like we should probably have embedded just into our culture on an ongoing basis, not just for employee onboarding. Talk to us about that. Yeah, absolutely. You know, whatever, whenever it was, maybe 20 years ago, people would go where they would have a ping pong table. You know that was the in thing and you needed to have snacks in the in the cafeteria, but that that satisfaction only lasts that long.

18:59 But if employees really feel like they have opportunities within the organization opportunities not only to go up a ladder but also to develop as a human being I think, particularly for the younger generations these days, that is key. That's what they're looking for. They are not looking to be a number in an organization. They want to be an individual that is recognized, an individual that has opportunities, an individual that can grow and that can feel good about themselves. If we can do that, if we can help them to feel good about themselves in how they're delivering the day-to-day work, but also how they develop as a human being, I think we really are on a better way to retaining these staff members, for them to become ambassadors of the organization, not only to clients but also to other potential team members that they bring in.

19:58 So there is a huge part of us as human beings wanting to be part of a bigger thing, and the organization that I work with can be that, and that's even harder to do if you have dispersed teams. Now, some people, like me, love to work from home. I wouldn't want to have it a different way. Some people really struggle with that. Some people would like to have a bit of a mix. So how do we approach that? And then, once we have those structures in place, how do we keep engaging with the staff members that we don't see as often versus the staff members that are always in front of us, members that are always in front of us? We have to be careful about that to create that fairness, that balance, and to ensure that the person that I don't see is still feeling engaged and feeling like they matter.

20:47 Yeah, really incredible insights. Again, I just feel like I'm going to sound like a broken record saying that this is how we become better leaders, because our people really are the driving forces of our business. And, petra, the entirety of your work focuses on investing deeply into our people, not just today, but on an ongoing basis, and with that in mind I'm gonna publicly call myself out here, but I'm sure you deal with this with every single client that you've worked with is that building these things is one thing, but maintaining them and updating them is another. For example, here behind the scenes at our podcast, we have a lot of SOPs. We obviously have been recording 850 plus episodes over the course of so many years and we've got a lot of tools that we use. We've got a lot of team members around the world. We've got a lot of processes that we do before recording, during recording, after recording.

21:30 But, petra, gosh, do they get out of date as the tools change, as the software is changed, as our processes? Processes change? Talk to us about that refinement and continuing improvement as things change over time, so that it's not just something we build and then it just stays there and gets outdated that is, yes, that is a challenge. So I I tell you a little bit about a present client I have and we've been working with them over two, three years now, and it started with one project. Now we're doing something a bit different. We used to work. They got a new learning management system and when you bring in a new system, you need to train people on it. So we did that.

22:11 That was our first project with them for their new LMS. But now we're developing compliance training. You know the training, but now we're developing compliance training. You know the training operational health and safety, privacy training, dei training and those need to be looked at at least once a year. So we're actually with this client now in the process of coming up with these structures, with these processes that we will do once a year to go through all the training, review what's the content? Do we need to make changes, engage the subject matter experts, review the content, update them in time for the relaunch it's a school, so for when the instructors and everybody comes back on board so that the training is always ready to go when we're starting a new school year.

22:57 So, and that can include opportunities that a system provides us. So if we have a system that is also continuous developing and gives us new opportunities of doing something new that we weren't able to do before, then now is the time for us to review that and see how can we make that training more interesting. And the one that I'm particularly thinking of is the security training. So security meaning more the how do you interact with the tools and the computer systems, the technology, in a way that keeps you personally safe but also keeps the organization safe, keeps you personally safe but also keeps the organization safe?

23:42 And this is a tricky one, because there are so many things that one should do about our interaction with technology that makes our browsing behavior safer. Let's just think about password safety. Okay, so how do we manage our passwords? How do we update them Not reuse passwords when do we store them? Who has access to what we store, all that kind of thing. Now, yes, I can learn that in a training program. I can read about it, I can see a video and I can think like, yeah, good thoughts, but it's about what I do that really matters, not that I've taken the training. So how can we now get that person who's watched the video and says, oh yeah, password. Maybe I should get that password manager to actually do it and work through these hard processes for them to get password safety increased.

24:33 And that's the challenge. That's what we're dealing with for this particular training program. We're going to look at those opportunities of how can we get staff members to actually act on that additional knowledge that they get when they take that course. Yeah, real life examples, petra. Our listeners so love those insights and, speaking of that, I think it's a really easy transition into what I really want to ask you about your zone of genius. Listeners know that we always ask our guests about their zone of genius and, petra, I love your answer because you said that you surprise your clients in a positive way, of how quickly and deeply that you get to understand their businesses and their clients, and I think that's such a powerful skill set for all of us entrepreneurs, whether we're talking within the context of learning management systems, whether we're talking within the context of learning management systems or whether we're just talking about knowing our customers to deeply serve them and more effectively serve them.

25:26 So, petra, I want some of those insights into your entrepreneurial brain. How do you go about understanding them so deeply, so quickly? Well, I think partially it's because I would think I would describe myself as a naturally curious person. So if you're curious about what's really going on on that other side, then you learn about that and I think the ability of connecting the dots because of the varied background that I have, I think that's something that comes fairly natural to me. So we come up with research when we start with a new client. So we're just working with a company that does training development and delivers training to their clients in the aviation area, and for that we did a lot of interviews with their subject matter experts one hour, two hour workshops and this is where we actually also use some AI to help us out.

26:25 So, for example, these workshops were all recorded, transcribed. Well, that's a press of the button these days. In the past I would sit there typing it, but now it's done while I do something else, and then we analyze those responses and we really pulled out the requirements for this particular client in a spreadsheet that we can then share with vendors and vendors can give us responses and that makes the vendor responses more comparable. But it's really about understanding what is going on for the person who deals with these daily processes, not just for the business objectives, but what's going on for the person who deals with these daily processes, not just for the business objectives, but what's going on for that individual who needs to do these processes?

27:05 What of these processes are repetitive, are not helpful, are annoying? We want to try and find those processes and get rid of them. What are the ones that they really feel that they're adding value? They need to put their brain behind some decision making. Those are the ones that they really feel that they're adding value. They need to put their brain behind some decision making. Those are the ones that we want to keep in the hands of humans. So we want to look at finding different solutions for this client, for example, where they can improve their processes, reduce their manual labor, bring in automation, bring in AI, maybe even, and give them a system where they can do what they're doing now, but maybe multiply it by two, three, four times as many clients as they're serving now.

27:46 So it's really about that curiosity and wanting to understand what's going on and building on that. Yeah, I really appreciate those insights, petra, I will say from my vantage point as someone who gets to talk to so many incredible entrepreneurs just like you every single day of my life, and obviously we are so fortunate and grateful to bring this type of real life conversation to listeners all around the world. One thing that I constantly hear from amazing entrepreneurs is that ingredient of curiosity. So I love the way you articulate that and call that out, because it is so important and, along those lines, it's part of the fun for me in all these conversations is to talk to you as a fellow entrepreneur, not just the subject matter expert, because while we're talking about education and learning systems here today, we've also touched on things like culture and being better business leaders and being better team leaders.

28:34 So, with that hat on, petra, I can't invite you here and not take advantage of your vantage point, which is you do get to work inside of so many different businesses and you've talked about one word you brought up several times is engagement. What is it just from a business perspective? Because I know that you are wise way beyond just learning. You have a great business mind on top of your shoulders and, with that in mind, what is the difference that you've seen between businesses who have those engaged, hungry, growth-minded teams, versus the ones who don't? Yeah, what is it? Definitely, I think corporate culture has a lot to do with it and how the corporate culture fits to the individuals who come and work for that organization.

29:18 So if I have a culture that is, let's say, very casual you know, everybody is everybody's buddy that will not really be a culture that will be suitable for everybody. But if we then get those individuals who really fit into that corporate culture, benefit from it, enjoy it, then they will fit in better, they will learn how we do things around here better and they will probably stay with the organization longer. And that is not only on the lower level of the organization. I think it's almost more important when we're thinking about the hierarchy and let's say you're replacing a senior leader, the executive that comes into the organization.

29:59 They also need to fit with that culture, unless you really want a culture change, which probably would be a big disruption, and that's a problem with mergers and acquisitions. I think you know, when you bring organizations together that probably have very different cultures and if the goal of the merger and acquisition is that you're actually creating one new organization, some culture from one part at least, maybe both parts will have to go and has to be replaced by a new culture, and creating culture takes a long time. So that's, I think, when we're thinking about and has to be replaced by a new culture, and creating culture takes a long time. So that's, I think, when we're thinking about getting that engagement going. A lot has to do with that. Who are we as human beings and how well are we fitted to work together?

30:42 And how do we, how do we look for people when we're building and growing the organization, that really make that fit as well, All levels of the organizations. Yes, how frequently does it come back to the human element of business? This is why I so appreciate you coming on here, petra, and giving us that real stuff, because I think it's easy in a world of AI technology, learning management systems and SOPs, to get caught up in the actual business strategies and processes, but forget about that human touch, which so much of your work ultimately keeps coming back to the human. So, listeners, it's a great reminder for all of us to treat our businesses that way and if you're tuned in today and you're thinking well I don't have teammates just yet, or team members, petra so much of what we talked about today is also with regards to our clients.

31:27 So I think it's really powerful takeaways. And, on that note, I love to ask at the end of all of our conversations here on this show, about something actionable, because listeners tuned in here and I'm sure myself included we feel like we've got a lot of homework to do to up our game. So, with your either entrepreneurial hat on or your subject matter hat on, it's always fun to see where guests take this question. What's that one takeaway? What's the one action that you hope every listener walks away from today's session with? So I'll tackle it from the entrepreneurial perspective. I think I want to encourage you, as listeners, to not be afraid to keep changing your story, to keep changing that path, to reinvent yourself, even if you want to, and do it frequently.

32:16 Just really take at least once a year, take a pause and look at what's been working for me, what has not been working for me. Build on what's working for you and really put more of your energies towards that. And be brave and drop something that's not working for you, that's not bringing you the results, that's not happening. You're not having fun doing that. Just let it go and and and open that space, create that space to do the things that really move you and make an impact on you, your family, your friends and those who are. So you surround yourself in your organization and just do different things, and I think if you keep being on that developmental journey yourself, you'll attract people who also want to be, and I think it is more productive, more fun that way.

33:07 Yes, incredible advice, petra, from a place of so much experience and wisdom, and I'm so grateful that you've shared those takeaways with our listeners. Listeners I'm going to call all of you, and myself included out. There is that Petra's advice applies to all of us, no matter where you're at in business or in life, because even you entrepreneurs out there find the things that work. Cut the things that don't work. This applies to each and every one of us, petra. It's not always easy giving advice across that broad spectrum. I know that firsthand. So kudos to you. With all of this said, I know that listeners are gonna be super keen to go deeper into the wonderful world of all the great work that you're doing, the great strategies and insights that you're out there practicing and exhibiting into all of your clients' businesses.

33:53 So drop those links on us. Where should listeners go from here? Yeah, follow me on LinkedIn and come and visit my website. If you are trying to develop training programs, I've got some free resources on my website that help you through the process of doing that. If you're just starting out and you're looking for a system, you know eventually you'll need a learning management system of different shapes and sizes. Again, there's a couple of free resources on my website. There's case studies there for you to check in, and if you want some advice, then just reach out my website or LinkedIn. Yes, listeners, you already know the drill. We are making it as easy as possible for you to find Petra's business, which is Petra Mayer and Associates Consulting.

34:34 That website is PetraMayerConsultingcom. You'll find that link down below in the show notes. Wherever it is that you're tuning in, free resources, case studies, real life business in front of your very eyes, that's what Petra's made available to all of you on her business website, petramayerconsultingcom. Find that link down below, as well as a link to Petra's personal LinkedIn. It's actually how we came across Petra's work and we so respect and admire the way she shows up out of service. You saw it firsthand here today. So, petra, on behalf of myself and all the listeners, thanks so much for coming on the show today. Well, thank you so much for having me.

35:26 It was a lot of fun. Guests, there's a reason why we are ad free and have produced so many incredible episodes five days a week for you, and it's because our guests step up to the plate. These are not sponsored episodes, these are not infomercials. Our guests help us cover the costs of our productions. They so deeply believe in the power of getting their message out in front of you, awesome entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, that they contribute to help us make these productions possible. So thank you to not only today's guests, but all of our guests in general, and I just want to invite you check out our website because you can send us a voicemail there. We also have live chat. If you want to interact directly with me, go to thewantrepreneurshowcom.

36:08 Initiate a live chat. It's for real me and I'm excited because I'll see you, as always every Monday, wednesday, friday, saturday and Sunday here on the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.