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Hey, what is up?
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Welcome to this episode of the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast.
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As always, I'm your host, brian LoFermento, and I'll tell you what.
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You all know how much I love entrepreneurial stories that use their unique gifts and passions to help others, and that epitomizes what today's guest and fellow entrepreneur is all about.
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So let me introduce you to her.
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Her name is Sammy Packard.
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Sammy is a seasoned facilitator, coach and change expert with over 10,000 hours of experience in design thinking and organizational change.
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She has collaborated with Fortune 500 companies and nonprofits, helping them navigate complex transformations, and she has a coaching service.
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Her company is called Couple Dom, where she assists individuals and couples in proactively designing fulfilling lives together.
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Yes, all of us, whether we're in relationships, whether we're just people, we all are looking for that fulfillment, and for so many of us entrepreneurs, it comes through our work.
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So Sammy's going to connect a lot of dots for us here today, especially during times of change.
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So I'm super excited to learn from her, super excited to hear the way that she thinks.
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So we're all going to learn a lot.
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I'm not going to say anything else.
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Let's dive straight into my interview with Sammy Packard.
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All right, sammy, I am so very excited that you're here with us today.
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First things first, welcome to the show.
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Thanks, brian Heck.
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Yes, well, I'm excited to hear your backstory from you personally.
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So let's start there.
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Take us beyond the bio.
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Who's Sammy?
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How'd you start doing all these cool things?
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Yeah, thanks, I would say my thread has really been about how do we help people navigate this life in a more heart-centered way.
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I've always sought to bring about more empathy and curiosity for those around them, starting with Design for America and Kaiser Permanente and working to bring that mindset most recently into Accenture, and while doing that, I've been applying those skills to my own marriage to bring about more sanity and satisfaction while raising young kids, and so something that kicked off my work was doing a marriage off-site for my husband and I to make a big life decision, and doing so really helped gain a lot of clarity for us and what we wanted to do next in life, and it went actually a little bit viral and I had folks reaching out to me and wanting to do that type of work together, and so I've launched my company Coupledom in helping successful couples navigate life together, especially during times of change.
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Yeah, I love that overview, Sammy, especially because, as a lifelong entrepreneur, I feel like I have a tendency to treat most things like a business, most things like entrepreneurship.
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And so, hearing the fact that you and your partner went on an offsite, that is a very business minded thing to do within a relationship, sammy.
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It's probably not the typical thing, but I would imagine all the reasons why we benefit from an offsite.
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Of course you would benefit inside of a relationship with an offsite.
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Talk to us about that.
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Is it that business-minded approach to it, sammy, or where did that come from?
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Well, I would say this work started with that business mindset, but my journey has really taken me to much deeper places, realizing that post-it notes and strategic planning will only take us so far.
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The way I see it is, our inner world is a reflection for our outer world, and so I've actually been practicing to really cultivate a deeper relationship with my clients and allowing them to better understand their own inner world so that they can create more agency and intentionality in the world that they're trying to create and live in.
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Yeah, I love the way you articulate that and obviously you heard me tease at the very top of today's episode about.
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I so enjoy in these conversations learning about the way someone thinks, and I know that design thinking is so at the core of the way that you operate.
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A lot of people may not be introduced to what design thinking is.
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Can you walk us through how that plays into the way you work?
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Yeah, sure, and I've actually given a TED Talk about design thinking.
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So I do love this topic and it's certainly come through its evolutions.
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But at the core, it starts with deep empathy and understanding for whoever it is that you're working with whether it's your partner, yourself or a customer and really getting to know the inner workings of who you're trying to help.
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And through that, through the insights gained, you can more creatively and expansively think about solutions and how to create things that are novel and relevant for people.
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And so I find this actually quite applicable to individuals, and I do the same type of approach with my clients, where they gain empathy for themselves and for each other and, through those insights, coming to understand what life do we want, what is it that society is telling us that we need to do, that we might want to challenge, and that way we're allowed to think much more creatively and broadly about the life we want to live.
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And then it's really a matter of iteration and learning.
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So not just saying, okay, this is the one and done thing that's going to work for us, but doing small experiments to say you know, how does this work for us, what might we want to try and continue to just iterate and evolve in our own lives.
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Yeah, sammy, I think it's so important, something that you shared there.
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When we talk about empathy, so frequently we look at outward empathy, our ability to empathize with others, but you just called out so clearly there about empathizing with ourselves and colloquially, we have that phrase of you can't pour from an empty cup.
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We've all heard that quote before and we've heard that type of advice, but I found, whether we're talking relationships, whether we're talking entrepreneurship, I'm a better version of me when I show myself grace, when I show myself patience.
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Talk to us about the importance of that, because it's so interesting for someone who works within the realm of relationships and obviously you're also a fellow entrepreneur, which comes with its own mindset, things along the way that, sammy, you fully recognize that importance of self and that empathy and that grace that comes with it.
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I'm so glad you asked, brian.
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It's actually a huge passion of mine.
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More and more, I see just the wealth of wisdom that we carry within us, just the wealth of wisdom that we carry within us, and it actually gets so blocked by the hustle and bustle of daily life.
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And I also want to call out that the hustle and bustle really impacts parents so harshly.
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Between childcare and navigating life with a partner and one or two people working and maybe caring for aging parents, all within a system that doesn't support us, it can become incredibly easy to become disconnected from our own selves.
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We don't even know who we are anymore, we don't even know who we want, and so, of course, how can we achieve happiness and peace if we don't even know what we want?
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And so all of my work really starts with our own connection to ourself, and I deeply believe in the power of self-inquiry and self-compassion, because the more we can be in touch and appreciate all of who we are and all of who we aren't, the more expansive our life can become.
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Yeah, sammy, there's something you said there that I don't think we actually talk about often enough or publicly enough.
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You said we have to be aware of what we are and who we are and also who we aren't, and it takes me back to a conversation I had many years ago.
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I was actually sitting at LAX and one of my friends from entrepreneurial circles.
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He was just connecting through LAX and we just so happened to be sitting there at the same time, and he said something to me that he was thinking about in that moment is that our results in life are the result of what we do, but also what we don't do.
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It's the first time that I started looking at that other side of the coin, sammy, and here it is coming up again, talking about what we aren't as much as what we are.
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Why is that so important in the work that you do?
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Thank you for that.
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Yeah, there's a lot of feelings that I have there, but I think our culture focuses so much on all the things that we should be and all the moreness that we should pursue when really I find that my clients are most satisfied when they start doing less.
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They start being less scheduled, less extracurriculars, less hustle and bustle, so that we have more time to be present and less pressure on ourselves to do everything, because life is so beautiful just right here in this moment.
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If only we could just stop and relax into it and enjoy what's right in front of us.
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Yeah, so well said.
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And heck, you and I are getting together on a Tuesday, which are my recording days, and such a big reminder.
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On Tuesdays, all I have to focus on and all I really enjoy focusing on is just these conversations, and it's that presence of not switching gears.
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It is so important in my workflow and the way that I operate that when I'm recording interviews, it's the only thing in the world that matters.
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I have no other responsibilities.
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However, while I'm saying that, sammy, I know that it's easier said than done and I can use this example of my workflow as a picture of how I do that.
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But of course, a lot of people listening will say well, life gets in the way and you already called out.
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You know, being a parent is different.
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Kids get in the way.
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There's so many more things that we're responsible for along the way.
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How do we make sense?
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How do we stay on that focus, that present moment, amidst a world where a million things are getting thrown at us?
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Absolutely.
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We're constantly getting pulled into a million different directions and it really is a practice and devotion to choose the present moment.
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And I know life gets crazy, and again, especially dual income.
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Parents who are both in the hustle and bustle they're doing drop off, their kids are whining, their shoes aren't getting put on, and then they come back and just hustle for the bedtime routine, get the dinner, maybe a bath time if you can squeeze it in, and it can almost feel impossible to have that sense of presence within ourselves.
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And so, as parents, oftentimes we find those moments just in the crevices of our lives.
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Whether it's five minutes in between work calls or 30 minutes after the kids go to bed, we might be able to find time for ourselves and it's really prioritizing that time that allows us to create that space and that connection with ourselves.
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Yeah, I love that, Sammy.
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Now I'm going to think of you in the crevices of life, when I'm in the shower, when I'm on a bike ride, when I'm stuck in traffic.
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Those are the moments where I have those times to think, to dream, to come up with ideas, to really focus in on what's important right now, what's going to move the needle for me in the direction of where I want to go.
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But that also introduces me to it's obviously a big topic and I would imagine it's the crux of so much of the meaningful and deep work that you do with your clients is where is it that we want to go?
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That is such a big, broad question.
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We could probably have a 10 day long podcast episode about the very nature of that question.
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But how do you even begin to make sense of it for couples or for individuals who have never had that room to dream and probably don't even know all the possibilities?
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How do you start to answer where is it that we want to go?
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Beautiful, and I'm assuming when you said where do we want to go, it brings up well, where do we want to go individually or with our partner, or with our family, or even with our community?
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I run a parenting support group and more and more I see that parents are feeling lonely and isolated and really, as a result, parents feel like they're doing it wrong because they don't know how other people are doing it, and that sense of self-judgment and criticism is leading to a lot of anxiety and self-doubt and burnout for parents.
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And so, first and foremost, I want to reassure parents that you're not doing it wrong.
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You're doing a great job at however you're doing life with your kids and getting folks to just think about how they can connect with themselves, and you know, the outer world becomes an expression of our inner world, and so the more peace and calm we can cultivate within ourselves, the more connection we have with ourselves, connection with others, and connection with our spouse will naturally follow as well.
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Yeah, sammy, you just really brought me back to 2020.
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Obviously, the world was flipped upside down in so many different ways and it was at that time when I came across the quote.
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I'm obviously a sucker for quotes where you, but inside of you.
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That's where we have to master that domain.
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It's, of course, easier said than done.
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I would imagine that most of your work, all of our work, in any industry, is, for sure, easier said than done.
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How do you start to help people actually put that into practice?
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Because in a world where you can turn the news on, on, you can open up social media and there's a million things and there's chaos in so many different ways, but it's it's that water that we don't want to get inside of us, to ship, to sink our ship.
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How do you go about helping people with that process?
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yeah, that's a great visual and I'll keep building on that.
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And I find that what creates holes in our ship is really all the shoulds that we carry, and it's when we start to follow other people's shoulds.
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We should be starting amazing organizations, we should be traveling cross country or across the world.
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We should be, you know, getting our kids into all the extracurriculars that are going to get them into a good college.
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It's all that external pressure that can, if it doesn't align with our most authentic self, create those holes and that sinking feeling versus if we make choices that feel really aligned to who we are.
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So, for example, I was just working with a client the other day who was trying to decide between private versus public school because her child is bored in kindergarten, wants to be more challenged, is currently in public school, and so as we went through that terrain, you could really hear the shoulds of I should put my kid in the best school possible, I should support her as early on as possible and as we work together, one her love of learning was just so obvious and so beautiful, and you could see her eyes just light up at how much she and her partner appreciate her love of learning and acquiring new knowledge in whatever form it is, and what came out in that session was that her core belief in her own inner self is that learning happens everywhere.
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Learning happens on a walk in nature, learning happens while you're walking down the street, learning happens from people who are different from you.
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And through that very brief conversation she walked away feeling pretty resolved that learning could and wants to happen anywhere, regardless of what school she's in.
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And they already spent so much time choosing the public school near their house that the trade-off of starting a new school longer travel distance would actually be a harder choice for their family.
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And so, by her tuning into her own inner wisdom, her own inner knowing, she was able to make a choice that would help her continue on her journey and not create a hole in that ship.
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Yeah, I love that real life example, sammy, and when I think about gosh, that's such a big, pivotal choice in our moments about where we go to school, what we do with regards to our family schooling.
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There's so many important changes and pivots there, and it's a word that comes up a lot the deeper I went into all the work that you do.
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It seems to me like you step into change, like you enjoy change, because obviously it plays into your clients' lives.
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Another quote that really comes to mind is the only constant is change.
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Of course, things are always changing, but that exposes things.
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That's what I love about that part of life Any part of life where change happens.
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We get to learn more about ourselves.
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How do we navigate those waters, sammy?
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Because you and I are two crazy entrepreneurs that we love change in so many different ways, but a lot of people are intimidated by that, or we always feel the trials and tribulations of change.
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What's it look like for you to navigate people through that?
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Absolutely.
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Change is terrifying for people, you know.
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We get into a certain groove, we know what to expect, we can feel really comfortable.
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And in my professional practice I used to say, when I was a consultant at Accenture for my clients I said my job is to help your team feel like they have a warm blanket and that they can just stay calm and feel supported as they go through something new in work.
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And I would say it's a similar experience now in my coaching practice where change feels similar to you know how, when you're cold and you're walking around and our body kind of, you know, clenches in and we say, oh, I don't want to be cold, I'm resisting this cold and I'm just gonna like try to stay warm.
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You know it's actually a very physical experience of resisting what is and what's really powerful as I work with clients to get more comfortable in their own bodies with the discomfort that is there.
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And just like anyone who does cold plunges I don't actually do cold plunges, I do what I call emotional cold plunges, but an actual cold plunge.
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But people who do cold plunge learn to relax their body and not resist the cold that is coming over them.
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And so, through self-compassion for people you know.
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Of course you're scared, of course this is hard.
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That makes so much sense that you're feeling nervous and anxious as you're starting something new and you don't know what's going to happen.
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That really allows people to calm their own bodies and calm their own nervous system, because change actually activates our nervous system of fight or flight am I safe or am I not safe?
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And so our body is constantly scanning am I safe, am I going to be safe?
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And change activates, saying no, you might not be safe.
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You need to stay nervous and you need to stay alert.
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And so it just so happens that in modern times, change could be changing jobs, moving locations, starting a new routine, having a new economic situation, which is certainly stressful, but our nervous system is still reacting as if we have a lion coming to attack us.
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And so really helping folks honor the feelings that they're having, honoring the fear that they contain, but through that self-compassion we can become more calm and settled and make more clear choices for ourselves yeah, sammy, I love the fact that you use the example of a cold plunge, because I've certainly not done a cold plunge, but I have tried cold showers and all of my friends who regularly do it.
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They swear by it.
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And what I found in my very beginner days of flipping the shower onto the coldest setting usually I would do it at the end and I try to stick in there for two minutes.
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But what I found is that, of course, like most things in life, it's a practice and the first time you do it it's extraordinarily difficult.
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The second time it is a little bit easier.
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But you do things a hundred times, 200 times.
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Here we are over 1100 episodes into this podcast, for example, and all of these things become so much easier through practice.
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Talk to us about how we can actually make that practice a daily part of our life, because obviously, the work that you do with your clients it's great to do it that initial time, but incorporating it into the regular way that they operate is the important thing.
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How do you encourage that sort of practice on an ongoing basis?
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Yeah, and I think that ongoing practice really differs according to who the person is.
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Some folks really, like you know, a routine and a set time and you know, maybe it's a mindfulness practice that they want to cultivate.
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And others, you know, want to be more in the flow, want to see how they feel in the moment.
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So for myself, for example, I try to take walks in nature every day.
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I'm lucky enough to live next to Golden Gate Park and, you know, for me setting a schedule feels a little bit stressful, like a new constraint that I'm going to have to navigate or a new thing I'm going to have to squeeze in.
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So I like to go easy on myself and say, oh, you know what, I have 15 minutes.
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Maybe I don't make it to the park, but I'm going to go on a quick walk around the block.
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Or I'm just going to go say hi to the trees and come back but it really looks different for each person and come back, but it really looks different for each person.
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So I really work with folks to help them identify one what helps them get in touch with that inner wisdom that they have, but also what feels easy to say yes to, that they can keep doing.
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Yeah, I love that, sammy.
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I'll tell you what.
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What listeners know that part of the magic behind this show is that there are no pre-planned questions.
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But I will fully transparently confess to you that there's one pre-planned question that I've been so excited to ask you, because the fact that you work with couples I always equate.
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As a entrepreneur for 19 years now, I always joke with people that when you have a business partner, that is essentially the same thing as a marriage.
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You have to work through a lot of decision points, you have to work through challenges, you get to celebrate together in good times, and a big thing that you have to navigate together is finances.
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And, of course, within the scope of what you do, you also navigate that literally with real couples, not just business couples.
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And so I want to talk to you about finance, because obviously there's differing views and it's not about, hey, we have differing views, we can't do anything productive together.
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It's about figuring out a path forward.
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How the heck do you navigate those?
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Because, whether it's relationships or business relationships, we can't avoid the topic of money.
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That's so funny.
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I love that question and it's actually really relevant to my own life, brian.
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I'd say my husband and I are considering a shift to how we approach finances.
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When we first got together and got married, it was very clear how we wanted to set up our finances.
00:24:26.404 --> 00:24:57.449
We both always made about the same amount of money, and so we set it up where we each, you know, have our own income in our own bank accounts and then we have a shared account where our shared expenses come from, and so we actually each contribute the exact same amount every month, and that goes to rent and childcare and groceries, and then all the money outside of that is for our own selves.
00:24:58.151 --> 00:25:14.978
And that has traditionally worked well for me, because my husband is a lot, you know, more frugal than I am and I want to be able to go shopping and not have to talk to him or, you know, have some big argument about investing in a retreat that I'm going to go to.
00:25:16.045 --> 00:25:24.113
So we've always kept our money pretty separate and he's always starting new side projects and businesses, and so he doesn't have to consult me on that.
00:25:24.113 --> 00:25:33.461
So that has worked well for us for the most part, and just now we're starting to explore a shift.
00:25:33.461 --> 00:26:06.092
Haven't made any decisions yet, but some of the feelings that are coming up for us are wanting to feel more like a team and wanting to feel more like a cohesive unit where you know your future is tightly tied to my future and we aren't just two individuals you know operating and living in parallel, but do we feel ready to surrender to each other in mutual care and trust one another?
00:26:06.092 --> 00:26:14.897
So, after almost 10 years of being together, we're considering that greater level of surrender, which can feel really uncomfortable.
00:26:14.897 --> 00:26:16.808
So we'll see how that ends up turning out.
00:26:17.371 --> 00:26:25.944
Yeah, I really appreciate how openly and transparently you share that, sammy, because this is the real vulnerable stuff for anything that we do in life or in business.
00:26:25.944 --> 00:26:40.173
I really love viewing them through the lens of relationships, because it's probably the most vulnerable thing that we do as humans and there are a lot of mindset struggles that come with business and entrepreneurship and growth in so many different ways.
00:26:40.173 --> 00:26:45.417
But relationships have that tendency to put everything under the spotlight and force us to confront them.
00:26:45.417 --> 00:27:00.536
So, hearing the way you navigate it, not only with the solutions that you found, but I love hearing how open you are to flexibility, how open you are to twists and turns and pivots, it's really cool to hear and so, with that said, I knew that we would touch at some point.
00:27:00.605 --> 00:27:10.749
Obviously, you brought really early on into our conversation your marriage offsite, and obviously it's something that I read I think it was in the San Francisco Standard, if I'm not mistaken, but somewhere I saw that.
00:27:10.749 --> 00:27:23.699
To accompany that, you had a 19-page Google Slides deck that you shared on your LinkedIn with the takeaways, with the insights, and me, as someone who I also love technology, I love sharing things that struck me.
00:27:23.699 --> 00:27:47.056
Talk to me about your attitude towards technology and all the things that come with it as far as documenting, as far as making progress, as far as making a plan, because, sammy, it's not every day that we see technology married with relationship work and married with the type of work that you do yeah, you know it's a love-hate relationship with technology.
00:27:47.115 --> 00:27:54.249
I'm sure, like many other folks, um, you know, technology can be a tool that we use.
00:27:54.249 --> 00:27:58.772
Um, I, I need to document things because, honestly, I just forget them.
00:27:58.772 --> 00:28:12.066
And as time goes on, folks who are married a couple might go what did we talk about again, or what did we agree to?
00:28:12.066 --> 00:28:27.948
And so documenting it was just something important to me to really commit to and to have this artifact of the conversation that we had that we can refer back to and be inspired by.
00:28:27.948 --> 00:28:32.134
And so do I love tech for the sake of tech?
00:28:33.635 --> 00:28:44.226
No, is it a useful tool to keep track and record the agreements that you've made and maintain alignment between you and your partner?
00:28:44.226 --> 00:28:49.515
Absolutely, and do I think everyone has to do that?
00:28:49.515 --> 00:29:01.230
No, for my clients, I try to wrap up and document it in a little Google slide deck, like I did with my husband and I, just to say, hey, if you forget what you talked about, here's what we did.
00:29:01.230 --> 00:29:16.375
And couples tend to appreciate it and some of my clients actually show it to their friends, and I've had one client send me one of their friends as a client and then they go and share their slide decks to each other and say, oh, what is yours and what is yours.
00:29:16.375 --> 00:29:19.430
So it's just kind of a funny outcome.
00:29:19.430 --> 00:29:28.557
But I try not to be wedded to any one particular technology or really just try to adapt to the needs of my clients.
00:29:29.365 --> 00:29:40.205
Sammy, I love that, but I will call out the fact that it works for you, not just because of the way you do it, but tone is so important, even hearing the way that you bring that back to your husband.
00:29:40.205 --> 00:29:42.049
You say this is what we talked about.
00:29:42.049 --> 00:29:47.791
It's in a helpful and supportive way, rather than a hey, this is what you had said, you know, six months ago.
00:29:47.791 --> 00:29:54.968
So I think that that's so important and it's just such a testament to the way that you show up and your communication style and how much you view this.
00:29:55.327 --> 00:29:57.071
I always hear that term gamification.
00:29:57.071 --> 00:30:08.893
You view it as a game, in the sense that you make it fun, you keep it playful and this is something that you do together and ultimately, that's such an important thing for all of us, whether it's in our business journeys, our relationship journeys, just our life journeys.
00:30:08.893 --> 00:30:11.173
I think that we're all much stronger together.
00:30:11.173 --> 00:30:12.711
So, sammy, huge kudos to you.
00:30:12.711 --> 00:30:19.833
I always love asking this question at the end of every session, because you are not only a subject matter expert, but you're also one of us.
00:30:19.833 --> 00:30:32.237
You're also a fellow entrepreneur, and so that is, with your entrepreneurial hat on, what's that one piece of advice that you want to leave listeners with knowing that they're both entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs at all different stages of their growth journeys.
00:30:32.237 --> 00:30:35.734
What's that one thing that you want to leave them with from today's episode?
00:30:38.224 --> 00:30:52.659
Yeah, I always tell myself I learned this through my practice of art making actually, and through that attunement with my own inner knowing that I try to make as far as I can see.
00:30:52.659 --> 00:30:59.917
You know, I don't feel like I need to plan the whole year or make a whole roadmap with KPIs.
00:30:59.917 --> 00:31:12.872
I need to plan the whole year or make a whole roadmap with KPIs, but maybe I'll get a glimpse into an article I want to write or a new page on my website or a new freebie, and I get excited about that and I say, oh okay, this is what I'm going to make.
00:31:12.872 --> 00:31:17.430
Next and I think the same is true in life is just make as far as you can see.
00:31:18.753 --> 00:31:19.615
I love that.
00:31:19.615 --> 00:31:20.538
It actually reminds me.
00:31:20.538 --> 00:31:31.194
Also, there's an MLK quote where it's I'm pretty sure it's MLK where he said at night, when we're driving, we can only see as far as our headlights go, and that's perfectly okay to get us to our destination.
00:31:31.194 --> 00:31:35.036
So, yeah, I absolutely love the way you articulate that, sammy.
00:31:35.036 --> 00:31:41.555
It's profound advice that we can come back to at all steps of our journeys, our growth journeys, whichever shapes that those take.
00:31:41.555 --> 00:31:43.917
So, sammy, you are a wealth of knowledge.
00:31:43.917 --> 00:31:53.792
You put so much goodness into the world through your TED Talk, through your writings, through your website, through your appearances on stages, and I'm so appreciative for all that goodness.
00:31:53.792 --> 00:31:57.131
So, for listeners who want to soak all of it in, drop those links on us.
00:31:57.131 --> 00:31:58.615
Where should listeners go from here?
00:32:01.769 --> 00:32:01.809
in.
00:32:01.809 --> 00:32:02.289
Drop those links on us.
00:32:02.289 --> 00:32:03.192
Where should listeners go from here?
00:32:03.192 --> 00:32:03.612
Thanks, brian.
00:32:03.612 --> 00:32:07.557
Oh, to check out more, feel free to go to my website at coupledomme.
00:32:07.557 --> 00:32:15.628
There's links to my sub stack as well as my.
00:32:15.648 --> 00:32:16.854
Instagram that's at coupledom, with an underscore at the end.
00:32:16.854 --> 00:32:17.898
Yes, and listeners, you already know the drill.
00:32:17.898 --> 00:32:24.193
We're making it as easy as possible for you to find those links down below in the show notes, no matter where it is that you're tuning into today's episode.
00:32:24.193 --> 00:32:32.596
You can see how much Sammy just loves giving value in the fact that when I kicked the links over to her, she said oh, holy cow, I want to thank you before I even dropped those links.
00:32:32.596 --> 00:32:35.355
So you can see that Sammy loves giving value.
00:32:35.355 --> 00:32:42.846
We had so much fun, our entire team had so much fun.
00:32:42.846 --> 00:32:45.757
Our entire team had so much fun coming across her work and I'm so grateful, sammy, that you've joined us on the show today.
00:32:45.757 --> 00:32:47.864
So, on behalf of myself, and all the listeners worldwide thanks so much for coming on.
00:32:47.884 --> 00:32:48.144
Thanks, Brian.
